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Tribal Hunting Student Files |
or Bisexual Law Students and Lawyers
By Trung D. Tu
An esteemed panel of openly gay, lesbian and bisexual lawyers spoke at the law school on Tuesday, Feb. 2, 1999. The panel included Edward Reeves, a partner at Stoel Rives; Jennie Bricker, an associate at Stoel Rives; Jim Van Dyke, Assistant City Attorney with the Portland City Attorney’s Office; Kathryn Ricciardelli, corporate counsel at Liberty Mutual; and David Thornburgh, litigation director at Oregon Legal Services.
The panel spoke to students and faculty about working and applying for jobs as sexual minorities. The main issues that the panel addressed were whether discrimination exists in the hiring and retention of sexual minorities, whether one should be “out” in the work place, what one should put on his/her resume, and what to say in an interview.
Addressing the issue of how to get a job as a sexual minority, Jim Van Dyke said that there is “no one way to getting a job; there is no one route to success.” Mr. Van Dyke said that discrimination clearly exists in the hiring of sexual minorities. Being out as a gay or lesbian person affects one’s ability to get a job. “We have to be realistic about it; society as a whole does not accept the concept of co-equal rights for gays and lesbians . . . and lawyers are just a reflection of the rest of society.” In fact, “even though lawyers are more educated, they are probably more conservative then a lot of aspects of society.”
Mr. Van Dyke further opined that, “It is not that lawyers are your enemies, but you always need to know what you are up against.” One shouldn’t be discouraged by that fact, but be realistic “and go forward armed with that information.” Unlike racial minorities, sexual minorities have a choice whether to disclose their sexuality or not in an interview. According to Mr. Van Dyke, “You should be yourself.” He advised that, when researching a potential employer, find out how they approach sexuality issues. It is important to know with whom you are interviewing, who the firm or the agency is, and who is on the interview panel.
One should keep in mind that it is important to be happy in the work environment. Mr. Van Dyke said that that when he first interviewed with the DOJ, he did not think it was relevant to disclose his sexual orientation; however, he “did not particularly hide that [he is gay] when he started working.” Being “out” is a decision that individuals have to make, because “you want to be comfortable at your job.”
Before she was an associate at Stoel Rives, Jennie Bricker was a clerk for the Ninth Circuit. Getting a judicial clerk job was very important to her, so she had to face the issue of what to include or not include in her resume. She also had to decide whether she should lie or not about being a lesbian.
She had decided that she was going to avoid questions related to her sexuality and pass herself off as straight. However, in her first interview, her decision only complicated matters, so that was the last time that she tried to hide her sexuality. To her “it just had too much of a cost.” She said that she was not good at lying, and that “it’s simpler to tell the truth . . . [because] as soon as you start lying, you have to keep track of what you lied about, what you divulged, and what you didn’t.”
She concluded that “it’s just simpler for her to be frank about everything.” She joked that she has what’s true memorized, so she doesn’t have to keep track of that. She stated, “It’s true that being gay or lesbian can cost you a job,” however, “lying could also cost you a job.”
Edward Reeves agreed, and stated that, as sexual minorities, “our whole lives are about educating people about who we are” and who we are not. However, “interviewing and the job search is not about educating people. It’s about getting job offers. Foremost and paramount to you in a very competitive society and a very competitive field, is you need to understand that you are who you are whether it is on your resume or not.”
One needs to make personal decisions based on getting a job. Mr. Reeves said that if one wants to test his/her employer regarding sexuality issues, then do it after you have the job. If you are out in your resume, then it is in the open for an employer to say that they won’t hire you, but they will probably find some other reason to point to. However, in “the interviewing process, you have to maintain your integrity. To maintain your integrity, you have to be true to yourself and never say anything inconsistent with who you are. You may not say, ‘Yeah, I am a gay man,’ but you don’t say, ‘I am married and have two children and live in the suburbs.’”
In order to be who you are, you have to do other things to look like a lawyer that clients and employers will want. Mr. Reeves said that “what people are looking for when they are looking for attorneys is how well you relate to us, and how you will relate to clients.” An employer may say that they can put up with you, but a client may not. Mr. Reeves concluded that one should come out when it is relevant, and that “when looking for a job, focus on looking for a job. You can educate the world once you have a platform to educate from.”
David Thornburgh said that when he was looking for a job, he wanted people to know that he was gay, because he wanted to be comfortable at the place he worked. Regarding whether to be out on your resume or not, he said that “it works quite well if it is relevant to the job.” If your sexuality is not relevant to the job, then it doesn’t matter.
“People should be themselves. If you’re not out very much now, then you don’t need to change that.” However, one must remember that you’re going to spend a large part of your life at your job. So, Mr. Thornburgh said, “it’s important that, when you are doing interviews and looking at where you want to work, that you find a place that you think you can be comfortable in, that will be healthy for you and that you can grow in.” The interview and hiring process is a two-way street. Just as the employer is interviewing you, you should also interview the employer and determine if it is a place you would be happy working in.
Addressing the issue of whether one should be “out” or not in the work place, Kathryn Ricciardelli stressed that she is who she is, and she is happy about who she is. However, she said that it is important to be attentive to your clients and co-workers. If they are people who do not appear to be open to sexuality issues, then she just proceeds in a pure business manner. If there is no reason to talk about personal business, then she doesn’t do it.
Ms. Ricciardelli said that she takes every opportunity she gets to educate people. However, as lawyers, we are advocates representing the needs of our clients, and it is important that we do what is in the best interest of our clients. Ms. Ricciardelli said that “every day we dress up in costumes and we go out and be these lawyers.” If the “costume” of being a married heterosexual woman helps her client, then she uses it.
For instance, there have been times when she was in a Southern Oregon courtroom, and the judge assumed she was a married heterosexual woman, calling her Mrs. Ricciardelli in front of a conservative jury. Instead of correcting the judge, she allowed the judge and jury to believe that she was a married heterosexual woman, because she was playing into what she needed to at that particular time to help her client.
Mr. Van Dyke warned that we must “be sensitive to others in the work place.” There are people in his work place who don’t want to interact with him because he is gay, so he lets them have their space. “You’re not going to be liked by everyone you work with. You don’t have to please all of your co-workers, but keep in mind that it is important to please yourself and be who you are.”
Career Services videotaped this panel presentation for those who could not attend. The videotape is available for viewing by all members of the law school community.